124/2000 Stock Suspension Coil Springs

Tech chat w/ Marc Matzer
Marc
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124/2000 Stock Suspension Coil Springs

Post by Marc » Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:28 am

All 124 series cars came stock with two different size or (spring rate ) suspension coil springs.Yellows and Greens.A yellow stripe painted on the spring or a green stripe painted on the spring by the Fiat Factory.
Yellow springs have a height greater than 8.5 inches when loaded to 900 lbs of weight.
Green springs have a height less than 8.5 inches when loaded to 900lbs of weight.
Yellow front springs can be used with either green or yellow rears.However green front springs must use green rear springs.

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PaulB
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Use on 850 Sport Coupe?

Post by PaulB » Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:39 am

So I have a camber compensator on its way to me for my 70 850 Sport Coupe;
and my Copy of FAZA says I should also replace the rear springs with 124/1300 units to stiffen them up. (Weekend SCCA Fun)

There is a set on Ebay:
Item number: 370117102050

But as a '76 They don't feel like the right thing; and look a little tall.
Can I get someone to comment as to their applicability?
What should I be looking for?

I didn't realize there were colors for the 124 springs.
Thanks for the info.
+Paul
Paul Blaylock, P.E.
Yellow Fiat 850 Sport Coupe, Series II
Black 2004 Mazda 3S
Silver 2004 Chrysler Crossfire

Marc
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Pauls springs

Post by Marc » Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:21 am

Hi Paul,
I don't think faza meant springs from a 124 spider.Spring rate and compressed force(250lb springs?)for example and overall height are major factors,and should be balanced with the front system.I can check to see what the best set-up is for your car.

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PaulB
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Almost There....

Post by PaulB » Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:30 pm

I decided not to bid on these springs, until I'm more sure of the application.
If anyone has experience with 850 Springs and compensator adjustments I'd like to hear about it.

My Camber Compensator came yesterday, and I was able to get it mounted last night...I didn't have time to fight with the front sway bar however, so moving the rear to the front will have to wait a little longer.

I did manage to get my Cleaned up 30DICA installed, and the car will start and run as long as I keep pumping in the gas....: (
So the accelerator diaphragm and check ball are now doing a fine job, but my running & idle volume is low. When I blow air through the Primary (from my mouth with a hose) gas is picked up and deposited on my bench, but the amount seems anemic.
When I re-assembled the Carb I fully seated all of the jets.
Do any of them need to be "backed out" for proper flow control?
Is there a common path for both Idle and Standard fuel flow that I should give more attention?

Thanks in advance,
+Paul
Paul Blaylock, P.E.
Yellow Fiat 850 Sport Coupe, Series II
Black 2004 Mazda 3S
Silver 2004 Chrysler Crossfire

Marc
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Fuel flow

Post by Marc » Tue May 05, 2009 6:52 am

Hi Paul,
Car should idle fine,jets should be seated all the way in.Start with adjusting the mixture screw first.Seat the screw all the way in,then back it out to get the fastest idle speed.Then adjust the throttle stop to the desired idle speed.Make sure the timing is correct.Is the float set correct?

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PaulB
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Still No Go

Post by PaulB » Wed May 06, 2009 5:45 pm

Thanks Marc,
I've had the carb off again, and haven't found anything wrong yet...
Mechanical Fuel pressure at turn-over is a pulsing 1.5-2 psi and goes to a steady 3psi at 3-5k RPM (While pumping gas in with the accelerator pump circuit)
Vacuum just below the closed butterflies is a steady -20"Hg while the RPMs were allowed to fall after revving.
I had previously set the float depth to 6mm...But will check it again.
I'll also make sure the jets aren't swapped, and report back.
+Paul
Paul Blaylock, P.E.
Yellow Fiat 850 Sport Coupe, Series II
Black 2004 Mazda 3S
Silver 2004 Chrysler Crossfire

Marc
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Setting up carb

Post by Marc » Sun May 17, 2009 8:37 am

Hi Paul,

Sounds like you have adequete pressure,you runnin a mechanical or an electrical pump?Check the jets,especially the idle progression jet on the primary side,make sure its clean,the oriffice is micro,so blow it out,easy to get jammed up with some particle during rebuild.Set Float level first.
If you have a fuel pump issue it would most likely idle ok,but when floored or running hard you loose power as a result of a lack of fuel under load.
Jetting is tricky,I can help you,make sure you have at least the stock numbers for the car,is the carb a mod?from another car?

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PaulB
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Some Progress

Post by PaulB » Mon May 18, 2009 6:24 pm

My remaining issue is no idle. Any idle-stop setting that drops the RPM much below 2K kills the engine. No matter what the idle screw is set to.

History:

I tightened up the fuel float seat, and re-set the height to 6mm.
This got me to a point where the engine would stay running, but only with the choke pulled on slightly.
(This also allowed the vacuum driven auto choke to do its thing and created a surging effect. (This bodes well for the cold choke operation)
I read this as a lean condition, and enlarged the main primary jet to 117 from 115, and kept the main secondary jet at 117.
My stock (rebuilt) 903cc engine now runs at 2000 RPM, and tachs up to 8K without stumbling.
Progression/Idle Jets are stock 45/45.

I'm using a mechanical pump
The Carb is a 30 DICA 2 with 23/23 and 45/45 secondaries, and regulated fuel bypass port.
(Power choke, and fast idle are the "special" features)
Fuel Pressure and timing are OK
(1-2psi at start 3psi while running) (Clean running 2-8K RPM)
Float distance has been checked and re-set to 6mm
Carb cleaner sprayed into the throat, primary idle progression, or idle screw holes produces a minor lag then strong surge in RPM.

I guess I'll pull it again, and look for blockage in the Idle.
Thanks for the input.
+Paul
Paul Blaylock, P.E.
Yellow Fiat 850 Sport Coupe, Series II
Black 2004 Mazda 3S
Silver 2004 Chrysler Crossfire

Marc
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Idle jets too small?

Post by Marc » Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:01 am

Hey Paul,
Sounds like it only runs on the main cuircit.try bigger idle progression jets,transition from idle to main cuircit should be smooth,they may be on the small side since the mix screw has no effect...or a blocked idle progression cuircit...?The way you described the choke system actually making it idle with the choke partially on,are you sure the choke system is working correct?Is the butterfly plate open when the car is heated up?

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Idle progression

Post by PaulB » Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:15 pm

Last Night:
So I pulled and stripped the top off of the carb again. Tying to hold holes closed and blow air through an open idle circuit was found to be impossible.
So I held the unit upside down, and with drill bit in hand, slowly drilled out the two lead plugs on the top face. These idle/progression feed tubes were found to be full of varnish. Even after all of the previous cleaning : (
So I worked the carb cleaner with some toothpick action until no more gunk came out, and then made some new plugs....
New Plugs:
I drilled some over sized holes in a board, then dripped lead/tin solder in them to produce little pill shaped plugs. I filed these down, then gently tapped them home with a small hammer. Trimmed them up, and sanded the top face smooth. I then verified that air / carb cleaner still flows past the new plugs.
I look forward to testing the unit tonight....
Success!! I reassembled everything after work, and mounted it to the car.
I now have an excellent idle, and no stumbling under acceleration.
Stomping on the gas revvs the engine to 4-5K where it pauses before proceeding to 7k+ (In Idle) Iĺl play with her some more tomorrow.
Paul Blaylock, P.E.
Yellow Fiat 850 Sport Coupe, Series II
Black 2004 Mazda 3S
Silver 2004 Chrysler Crossfire

Marc
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Blocked idle progression system

Post by Marc » Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:59 am

Great you fixed it! The way you described it,I kinda thought something could be blocking it up...anyway,next time you do a rebuild,you can use split-shot,the kind you use for fishing,to replug those holes after drilling them out.They are already small,come in a box with different sizes,very cheap,Walmart or any store that sells fishing stuff has them...pound them in and carefully file them down.Most people won't ever touch them,but 30 and 40 year old carbs should be totally overhauled.Let me know how it runs,can help you with jetting it. Happy Revs!

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PaulB
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30DicA Jetting

Post by PaulB » Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:40 am

I took my birthday off from work, and spent the entire day under my Fiat : )
I've added engine pans (Ebay from a 73 850 Spider fit fine), wrapped my exhaust, and played with my carb. Even with these changes it still seemed hot in the engine bay, and the carb was having issues holding idle.... So I pulled it again, convinced that it had a "stroke" (Varnish migration that plugged the idle again)
The passages were clear, but there was a mechanical interference with the throttle, and the choke wasn't being held off correctly. (Bad assembly on my part). I fixed these up, and put everything back together.
While there I changed the jetting back to stock...almost : )
During my tribulations, the main jets had been increased to 117 ea. so I backed them down to stock 115. I feel now that this richness was burning off (Probably in the exhaust), and was increasing the engine bay temperature. I'll see how it goes....
Idle jets are now 50 & 45; instead of 40/45 because I'm still a little shy about blockages. I'll probably try 45/45 next....
Air Correctors remained stock 185/170.
I have fairly good control of my idle now (Near 1K); with nice revs, and no flat spots.
The idle seems to fall away under braking/hard cornering though, and has cut out when coming into a red light multiple times.
I'm hoping this is still an adjustment issue, and not something more sinister.
So I got to drive her on my birthday, and things continue to improve.
I'm now driving her to work, and thinking about getting the electrovalve/ high idle working.
+Paul
Paul Blaylock, P.E.
Yellow Fiat 850 Sport Coupe, Series II
Black 2004 Mazda 3S
Silver 2004 Chrysler Crossfire

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Post by bill vail » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:08 pm

I'll be paying attention to what you find on the electrovalve issue as I also have an issue with mine and am just now getting to it as I also have been having issues with my DICA carb, but now running great but a little rich taking my gas milage down. And really not sure about the high end yet. Thinking about taking it on a trip from NC to Ohio if I get this heat soaking problem corrected. Will check then as it will get to 70. Not sure how much more tho. I had 2-850 spiders in the 70's and could get them to ~93 mph
1972 Fiat 850 spider
1976 Checker
2000 Kia Sportage

Marc
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Jetting

Post by Marc » Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:50 am

If you are running rich,it will decrease temprature,lean will cause higher temps,in the combustion chambers.The difference is very little between a 117 and 115 main jet,that is overall fuel volume to the circuit.The idle progression jets have the most profound effect on driveability.set everything back to stock,make sure that the choke system is working correct.get the engine hot and the set your idle mix screw,back out the screw from screwed all the way in until you get max rpm,adjust the throttle stop screw to get your desired rpm,then check the timing to see were it is.Set the timing to stock setting and then readjust the throttle screw to get your desired rpm and recheck the timing again until you have a strong idle and have the timming within range.If your stalling pulling up to a light,sounds like a weak idle or too lean an idle mix.

Bob

30DICA idle circuit

Post by Bob » Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:42 am

PaulB,

In one of your earlier posts, you mentioned difficulty getting your 850 to idle and ended up drilling out some lead plugs to clear the idle circuits. You said:

"...So I pulled and stripped the top off of the carb again. Tying to hold holes closed and blow air through an open idle circuit was found to be impossible. So I held the unit upside down, and with drill bit in hand, slowly drilled out the two lead plugs on the top face...."

I'm trying to understand where these passages and plugs are so I can do the same procedure to my carb. Did you take photos of the process, or have a diagram where you could point out the specific plugs you removed? I've cleaned my carb well, and re-checked the idle jets on the sides of the carb too. All is fine. Runs well, accelerates well, but just won't idle. I suspect some gum/varnish in an internal passage I wouldn't normally check.

-Bob

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